Haas spindel Deriver, Regen problem

[tayfunk]

Dear friends,
I have a problem in our haas spındle regen rezistor driving.
When high voltage contactor goes to active, regen rezistor driver Mosfet marked IXYS 75N120 is defected.
Its price is about 75 USD,in other words too expensive, for this reason I am afraid to test new one.
Can somebody help me?
At least can somebody tell me how it works?
In which conditions or working phase the Mosfet is in circuit,active?
Mosfet driver Ic is A316J

Note: I have Vector Drive circuit drawings, I have plotted them. If a friend needs them, do not hesitate to write me...

Best regards
Tayfun Kusluoglu

Similar Threads:

• 2 month old Haas VF2D, Regen Overheat?
• Arrow2 750 Coolant problem thru spindel
• Problem- FPZ 15hp regen
• Need Help!- What does a Regen unit do?
• Need Help!- Regen overheat

[Donkey Hotey]

I'm not sure what year your Vector Drive is but you are describing the regen IGBT. That price you mentioned is very reasonable. It's good that you found the problem. Most people would need to buy a whole Vector Drive ($4000 US).

That IGBT (Integrated Gate Bipolar Transistor) connects the motor to the regen resistors during spin-down. That's what causes the spindle to 'brake'.

So when you command the spindle to stop, it should turn on, connecting the motor to the resistors. When the spindle is normally running, it should be off.

Can you be more specific about what the problem is? Are the regen resistors overheating or are you getting some kind of error?

[tayfunk]

Dear Greg;
Thank you for your kind message.
In fact there was a another problem. When operator push the emergency buton, error LED on the circut board was turning on. I try to hard, I have drawn the circuit diagram. At last, I can fınd the problem. The problem was on U25 output. The output was short to ground.
As I describe before when the contactor activated, while the motor not turning, Mosfet is defected. Namely, Drain-Source has been short. For this reason REGEN rezistor has heated immadiately and the machine has given over heat error.
In fact first time the contactor is not activated. While I am searching the reason, I have done short circuit of ISO12 tranzistor side. Than contactor turn on. After in ten seconds ,I have heart tic voice. Then REGEN resiztor block is heated.
I want to understand that how can the control circuit recognize the slowing the motor.
Is it from the stop command or is it sense form the control board? Is that may be on the speed feed back sense modules LA-100P? Is that may be any off set problem of some operationel amplifiers? The U7 op.amp. pin 16 is -15VDC, other outputs are 0V of the two op.amps.
Best regards
Tayfun Kusluoglu

[Donkey Hotey]

The problems I had with my vector drive were not related to the regen IGBT but it sounds like you are having that problem.

The logic board controls everything in the Vector drive. There is an IGBT driver on the circuit board that commands the IGBT to 'turn on' when it wants to slow the spindle.

You are trying to figure out if the IGBT is bad or if the logic board is commanding it to turn on when it shouldn't be.

Have you tried to disconnect the plug between the logic board and the IGBT, then running it? I think you'll get an error but it might be a different one. That could help to isolate the problem.

Here is a site that has the data sheet on that device:
http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/pa...244/75N120.php

There is a download for the datasheet. (http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/do...-number=75N120) It sounds like you know how to diagnose electronics. The datasheet may help you to take it out and bench test the IGBT.

I hope the logic board is good in the vector drive. The problems I had were related to something on that logic board. I could not buy a replacement and I could not find the problem. It required a new vector drive from Haas.

[nerics]

Haas Spindle Regen resistor

Dear friends,

I started repairing a HAAS closed loop Vector Drive (Ref 69-1000 Rev AU), which had the 3-phase rectifier, the resistor that charges the main VDC bus capacitors (100 ohms 50 watt), one diode CR41 and the IGBT damaged.
I have replaced them all, except CR41. It has only on its body "ON 341 and U1J, would anybody know the characteristics of it?
I have tested the driver and spindle is working fine, it varies its speed accordingly. However when the speed is suddenly reduced, VDC to Servos (325VDC) ramps up up to 600 volts, what means REGEN resistor and electronics related to it is not working. HAve you had any similar experience ?

Thanks and regards.

Nestor Posada

[tayfunk]

Haas Spindle Regen resistor

Dear friends,

I started repairing a HAAS closed loop Vector Drive (Ref 69-1000 Rev AU), which had the 3-phase rectifier, the resistor that charges the main VDC bus capacitors (100 ohms 50 watt), one diode CR41 and the IGBT damaged.
I have replaced them all, except CR41. It has only on its body "ON 341 and U1J, would anybody know the characteristics of it?
I have tested the driver and spindle is working fine, it varies its speed accordingly. However when the speed is suddenly reduced, VDC to Servos (325VDC) ramps up up to 600 volts, what means REGEN resistor and electronics related to it is not working. HAve you had any similar experience ?

Thanks and regards.

Nestor Posada

Dear Nestor
I have try hard to repair Haas Spindle driver.
Would you please describe CR41 diode place on the circut?
On the circuits generally there are rectifier diodes. I have used 1N4007 compatible smd rectifier diodes. I had lieved no problem. There is only one switching diode CR27 on the board. I had used 1000 V 10 Amps switching diode instead.
However please describe CR41 diode place. Because I couldn't find on my circuit diagram.
Matter of the defective IGBT. Is it on the board Q4 (G10N50) or big one connected to 8.2 ohm REGEN resistor driver IGBT 75N120?
REGEN resitor is used to decrease over voltage on main capasitors.
When a load is accelerated electrical energy is converted into mechanical energy. During deceleration the conversion is reversed. This is called regeneration. Some of this regenerated energy is lost to friction in the mechanical system. More of this energy is converted to heat due to
I2R losses in the motor windings, cabling and drive electronics. The remainder of the energy is added to the electrical energy already stored in the internal capacitor bank of the amplifier. The result of this energy being added is an increase in the voltage on the capacitor bank.
If too much energy is added to the capacitor bank, the voltage will rise to a point where the amplifier's over voltage protection will shut down the amplifier. To prevent this, a regen circuit shunts some of the energy into an external resistor, known as a regen resistor, when the voltage rises too high.
The position is same in your circuit. In my opinion your REGEN circuit is not working. In my circut, REGEN resistor is controlled by U21 HP 613 Ic and the IC is controlled by U33 (LM339 pin 13) comparator Ic.
Please check the IC's either defective or not.
With my best regads
Tayfun Kusluoglu

[Erik Veneberg]

@ Tayfun Kusluoglu

We have a Haas vector drive 40/30HP and 20/15HP here (installed in a VF2 and SL30 respectively). They both had a IGBT regen resistor switch defective. Both have the same IGBT type mounted.

It seems they have the same control board circuit design but layout differs for both controllers. I've repaired the 20/15HP, only it's IGBT was defective. Remark: I replaced the original IXGN60GN60 by a GA200SA60S (Vishay, formerly IRF). The latter type has higher switching capability. This was mainly due to availability issues (delivery time far too long). Also I had some suspicion against the original type the circuit designer has choosen in the past. I compared specs. To my opinion, the IRF type may benefit from a tougher driving circuit, though this seems not necessarily mandatory. I did not adapt the driver, just tried and so far, so good.

The second drive (the 40/30HP) has component's damaged on it's control board damaged additionally. I identified most of these components and manually drawed the interesting part of the circuit diagram (regen switch control section). Repairing myself seems viable.

I've 2 questions for you:

1) until now I cannot find a pdf for the A316J driver circuit. This makes it hard to judge circuit operation. Maybe you found one, if so, would you be that kind an email me this pdf? (or other format).

2) you mentioned you own a circuit drawing on your site of your controller board. It may be interesting for me to see this in order to assist me in solving my problem here. Would you be that kind an email me this drawing also? (if possible?).

Addressing your issue (don't now wheter your solved) it:
My circuit diagram (if correct!, may differ from yours) suggests the driver for the IGBT is powered only during the time phase when the motor is actively connected via the inverter power section to the big main elco. When CR44 (on MY control board) is defective (and mine was so), then the driver may be powered continuously. This may raise problems. I have not examined this thoroughly, however, since I do not know the operation principle of the driver (hope to see pdf soon.....). I would suggest this may damage your IGBT when you start testing as a possibility. Notice, till now, this is just a guess of mine and it may help you. Don't know and be carefull.


Thanks in advance,
Erik Veneberg

[tayfunk]

Dear Veneberg

1-You can find A613J as HCPL-613J. If you can not find the data sheet. I can send you by mail

2-Ofcourse I can send the circuit diagram belong to Regen part. Would you please inform me about your E-Mail adress? My E-Mail adress is tayfunkusluoglu@edim.com.tr

After I send you diagram, I will be some advice.

Thank you for your questions

With my best regards
Tayfun Kusluoglu

[Erik Veneberg]

@ Tayfunk

Dear Tayfun Kusluoglu,

My email address is eveneberg@dassin.nl.

Funny, now I see (in your post to Nestor), the reference id U21 you mention for the 316 IC is the same as I read on my board here. I missed this earlier. Could be same circuit design (or even pcb) again.

@ every reader
As a second remark: I strongly advice not to try the try-out suggestion Donkey Hotey gave (I missed this earlier too, seems I've been sleeping.....). I mean disconnect the IGBT and try the drive. For those that don't know: an IGBT has a high-impedant gate ("insulated gate", part of it's name) which, when left open, can easily turn on the device "half way on". This would destroy the device more rapidly than one can whisper one's eyes, this is due to the high continuous dissipation at that time (normally, switching goes fast). In my systems, Haas did not provide a leakage gate-emitter resistor on the IGBT device itself separately, so this risc is present.


best regards,
Erik Veneberg

[Erik Veneberg]

@ Tayfunk

Dear Tayfun Kusluoglu,

A short google for HCPL-613J gives me the wrong device (BSN20). I expect an optocoupler or something like that. I would be very happy when you send me the correct pdf.

best regards, Erik Veneberg

[Erik Veneberg]

@ nerics (and Tayfunk)

Since I did some shopping for my board I also found this U1J marked diode:

http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Colla...URS120T3-D.PDF

It's a plain 600V 1A fast recovery. I just ordered them at Farnell. On my board (4016R rev B) a CR41 is located near mechanical signal relay K1 that drives the main power relay of the drive controller. CR41 is connected in series with CR40 (akak). CR40 is connected to the coil of K1. Notice: my CR41 (& CR40 also) have a U1D marking which indicates 200V max. So, I guess Haas did some optimizing work. To my opinion, you can simply put in a replacement you may have in your desk drawer.

Success (if not already repaired...),
Erik Veneberg

[Erik Veneberg]

@ all

On the 40/30HP controller board, I have 1 component exploded. It's reference id seems to be C139 on both pcb's, which suggests a capacitor is mounted here. Hmm, it doesn't look like one. On the good pcb the component (seems to be diode) has marking "1-50" and "RD" and an encircled "2". I could not google this device. When measuring, it seems to be a plain diode and this seems plausible to me for this circuit device position (clamp function). So, I plan to insert a new diode. Has anybody other suggestions? Please, let me know.

best regards,
Erik V

[tayfunk]

Dear Erik Veneberg,

A316J is pin to pin compatible with HCPL 316J. However when you buy the Ic you will see on the Ic Id code as A 613J.

I will send you schematic diagram tomarrow.

I am sorry to my late reply.

Best regards
Tayfun Kusluoglu

[Erik Veneberg]

@ tayfunk

Further experiences yesterday and today. My components arrived. I tried testing the machine with a diode for component C139, which I had some doubts about. Doubts were justified: testing was not a success: the IGBT died immediately when the spindle started braking. Lateron I found the HCPL 316J pdf on internet when googling again (there was a typo in your post which I did not notice earlier). So, after obtaining this info it became obvious C139 was not a diode but should be a capacitor instead. I inserted 1uF/50V and also replaced the 470 Ohm resistor that Haas has chosen as a IGBT drive current limit. To my opinion, the IGBT switches far too slow, stressing it more than it probably can bear. So, I made the 470Ohm resistor 0 Ohm. Testing: ok, but braking down from higher than 2000 rpm did not work ok: the drive amplifier ran into error condition. It was resettable from this condition via turn-off - turn-on cycling the drive amplifier. Viewing on oscilloscop made clear that the IGBT device now stopped operating after about 1 second. Probably thermal shutdown of the A316J IC? So, I put back the 470 Ohm in place. Guess: everything works fine. Also braking down from 4000rpm now, which took about 3.5s. Even after some stress testing the machine (forward-reverse-forward - reverse, etc) kept working. I think about contacting Haas about the switching speed but this will only happen after my holiday (which is 3...4 weeks from now, jippieee.....). I still keep being interested in your circuit diagram. Thanks for your help so far anyway.

Best regards,
Erik Veneberg

[tayfunk]

Dear Eric,
I want inform you that you can find all schematic diagram of Haas vector drive, given below adress.
http://www.edim.com.tr/index.php?opt...download&cid=3
Best regards
Tayfun Kusluoglu