New Mini Mill 2

[HAILINHAAS]

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[PBMW]

I like a lot of the things about this machine. SMTC, no chips in the pockets. More Z room...
I would really like Haas to build one with a real casting. More rigidity and real HP numbers, not marketing junk.
I also think Haas has a problem with machine overlap. For just a bit more, you get a VF2.
There are a lot of start up companies that are in the garage. Haas loyalty is pretty strong. Make a machine like this that is a step up from the mini, but still marketed to the garage shops and their budget.

[JohnJW]

Sometimes I wonder how much R&D budget Haas allocate vs NASCAR/Marketing. Is Haas more of a system integrator with clever marketing or machine tool innovator? Walking through Westec toward the end of the last day I walked by Makino's booth and the sales person was nice enough to explain his machine to me though I'm obviously not a potential customer. If I understood correctly, they also use linear guide way, beefier ball screw, heavier casting, and build their own spindles. Hence a machine that's more accurate at 2X the price but fundamentally similar to a haas. All the new machines I see at Haas are great, but they seem to be different rehash using similar components with perhaps the same limitations. I see horizontal expansion of product lines but I don't see technological expansion in the vertical direction. MiniMill2 is great but that's just a SuperMini with SMTC from the VF series. If they come out with something with beefier casting, ball screw that gives an 100% improvement in accuracy and repeatability at a fractional increase in price I would say WOW. To be fair, given my own lack of progress in the last two years with my SS who am I to judge. . . . Overall, Haas is still a great American company, but I sometimes wish they would start competing on some thing other than market share because other builders are catching up in providing value to the customer.

[slatern44]

I agree 100% with both of you. When I walk in to the Haas booth I really want to see what's new and cool for this year. I got a 100% let down. The Haas sales guy that walked around with me and showed me this new mini mill 2 did not understand much. He was telling me about how small of a footprint it took up and all the options that it had. But then I took out my free enco tape measure and we started to measure the actual size and compare it to a VF-2 that was 2 machines down and his eyes started to open up. He had never actually measured it himself he had just heard about it in meetings and what the flyer said. After a couple of minutes of talking he agreed that a VF-1 or 2 is a much better machine and value. And what up with so many SS machines at the show? I think and so do allot of other shops around here think that this is the worst machine they have made and its the reason they are not going to by another Haas again, but at the show they had a bunch of them. Too many in inventory or what?

[JohnJW]

And what up with so many SS machines at the show? I think and so do allot of other shops around here think that this is the worst machine they have made and its the reason they are not going to by another Haas again, but at the show they had a bunch of them. Too many in inventory or what?

I also noticed two SS at greenleaf's booth cutting away at P20 with their ceramtic inserts. When asked, the greenleaf person said the SS works well with their cutting tools. The machine is not free but they have some sort of a deal with Haas. The reason I noticed is because a couple year ago they were using Hurco. Anyway, I forgot to see if the RPM they were running was higher than the 7500 limit for the regualr VF. I don't think the SS are that bad, 30hp at 12000rpm is pretty good. Using smaller cutters I find myself at the 10k mark all the time.

[PBMW]

John....
It's not a 30 hp machine.
It's a 15 hp machine.
Haas rates their motors at 200% spindle load for 30 seconds. That would be just aout three seconds before it goes up in flames.

[axis]

are you ready to get sick its not a 30 or a 15 it a 10hp motor here is the one out of my ss. left me with more quetions than answers but i havnt run out of power yet but this is the second motor in my machine if that tells you anything

[PBMW]

They're calling it a 30 hp machine and it's got a 10hp motor?
I'd be talking to my lawyer about that.

[Donkey Hotey]

Ya' know guys, I've been reading these threads about spindle HP but that plate tells a lot.

Yes, it says that it's rated at 10HP but that is at 1750 RPM. We'd have to see the torque curves but the pulleys are 1:1 ratio, right? So a 7500 RPM machine isn't making 10 HP from only 1750 RPM.

• 10 HP at 1750 RPM is 30 ft/lb
• 30 HP at 7500 RPM is 21 ft/lb

That means that the motor's torque curve has dropped off 1/3 at the elevated RPM (which makes perfect sense). Haas has on-the-fly Wye-Delta switching to minimize that effect at higher RPM.

It sure seems to me like 30 HP is perfectly realistic--unless I'm missing something here.

[JohnJW]

John....
It's not a 30 hp machine.
It's a 15 hp machine.
Haas rates their motors at 200% spindle load for 30 seconds. That would be just aout three seconds before it goes up in flames.

Ouch. . .

are you ready to get sick its not a 30 or a 15 it a 10hp motor here is the one out of my ss. left me with more quetions than answers but i havnt run out of power yet but this is the second motor in my machine if that tells you anything

Double Ouch. . . well, you haven't run out of power yet. . but why is it the second motor?

Is this standard industrial practice in rating hp? Anyway, now I am curious. Are there any maintenance manual for haas available that will show how I can take the machine apart to check under the hood to take a look at things like motors and ball screws and do some basic maintenance so I can get to know the machine better?

[Donkey Hotey]

Is this standard industrial practice in rating hp?

Did you read the post above yours? They have to rate the HP at some RPM. At the RPM these spindles run, the motor may very well be putting out that much horsepower. The rating on the motor plate is at that RPM only.

[PBMW]

Now I don't know, so go easy on me....But dosen't the current go down as the frequency rises to increase the rpm? Therefore it makes LESS power at higher rpm?
If you calculate the material removal rate of RPM and feed and DOC over time, you can calculate HP from that. It's all in the machinery's handbook. You'll see that it ain't makin anywhere NEAR 30 hp.

[axis]

donkey the part you are missing is that its is a direct drive 12000rpm, when i found the hp on the motor it was like buying a new truck being told that it had 450hp driving it blowing up the motor then poping the hood to find a 4 cylinder under there ya it had 450hp for 30 seconds , but it probley would have been better if it was a v-8 with 450hp. you can try to explain it to me, but when i call the manufacture they couldnt explain it.
you call them see what they say. now i havnt run out of power but i cut alumnum.

[Donkey Hotey]

donkey the part you are missing is that its is a direct drive 12000rpm

Exactly. The motor is directly coupled to the spindle. The number you're reading on the nameplate is at 1750 RPM, not 12,000 RPM.

At 12,000 RPM, it only has to make 13 ft/lb of torque to be 30 HP. 13 ft/lb ain't much. I believe it's probably a real number.

What they're doing to get 30 HP is to spin the living piss out of that little motor. That's what you get with a high RPM spindle.

My VF-2 is rated at 20 HP and 10K RPM. I've got the same problem. That's why I spent the extra money for a gearbox. The gearbox turns all of that RPM into usable torque instead of speed.

This is exactly the problem with any high RPM spindle that doesn't include a gearbox.

If that motor made the same torque at 12,000 RPM as at 1750 RPM, it would be putting out 68 Horsepower. We know that's not happening.

If anybody wants to play around with the equations on their own and they don't remember them, here's a good link:
http://www.iprocessmart.com/techsmart/formulas.htm

[Donkey Hotey]

This is what I'm talking about:

Take a look at this table. If the motor always put out constant torque, regardless of how fast it was spinning, this is what your 10 HP motor would look like:
HP Torque RPM
10 30 1750
14 30 2500
29 30 5000
43 30 7500
57 30 10000
71 30 12500

But we know that at 12,000 RPM, it's supposedly rated at 30 HP. The torque isn't constant so it probably looks more like this:
HP Torque RPM
10 30 1750
14 29 2500
18 19 5000
22 15 7500
26 14 10000
30 13 12500

This is exactly why people tune performance engines to turn more RPM. More RPM equals more horsepower. The pistons and crank only displace so much. Combustion pressure over that sized piston can only push so hard on that crank. After that, the only way to more horsepower it to increase RPM.

That's what has been done here: high RPM, low torque. The plate on the motor is misleading because they chose to rate it at a commonly used RPM rather than at it's max RPM.

[axis]

vf2ss
Max Rating 30 hp 22.4 kW
Max Speed 12000 rpm
Max Torque 75 ft-lb @ 2100 rpm 102 Nm @ 2100 rpm
Drive System Inline Direct Drive
this is what they sell you on and if i caculate the

T = HP x 5252
N

Where T = Torque (LbFt)
HP = Horsepower
N = Speed (rpm)

t-75ftlbs=hp-?x5252/2100rpm
hp=29.988

so if i need 30hp to get the 75ftlbs at 2100rpm and what i get is a 10hp thats wound out to give me 30hp how long do you think the motor should last if i am using it a that level all the time. not meaning to get into a pissing test but when you spend this kind of money. i am not looking for the same torque curve all the way up to 12000rpm but you dont expect after the motor goes bad and takes out the spindle with it in about a 2 minite span to open the thing up and see 10hp staring you in the face. you can do all the math you want i still dont see 30hp anywere i see 10hp at 1760. and i dont agree with more rpm=hp thats like saying a bigger fly wheel gives you more torque. not going to happen. but thats my opinion

[Donkey Hotey]

I'm not defending anything. You've got the basic math right there. Baldor rates the motor at the frequency that most people will use it: 60 Hz. At that frequency, it probably spins 1800 RPM. With a load, the slip drops that down to 1750. They put the most relevant number on there because that's where most will use it.

If you could get Baldor to give you the torque curve of that motor all the way to 12K, you'd see some torque value that would be around 13 ft/lbs. It doesn't mean the motor isn't rated for that RPM. It's just not where most people will use it.

The more I thought about this yesterday, 12K RPM is right at 400 Hz from the Vector Drive. All of it makes total sense.

This isn't about magic flywheels making more torque. It's the simple matter of torque at some RPM equating to horsepower. The same torque at twice the RPM is double the horsepower.

Think about it some more. You'll realize that there is no deception going on. It's a 30 HP spindle. When you call Haas, you're not talking to an engineer. Any of their engineers could have explained it.

Or: go to the Baldor website and try to find a dedicated 12K motor in that horsepower range. They don't exist. That's because they're all categorized at 60 Hz. Actual application and horsepower will vary depending on the application. I'm sure the frame, windings and bearings are rated to that RPM.

[JohnJW]

I'm not defending anything. You've got the basic math right there. Baldor rates the motor at the frequency that most people will use it: 60 Hz. At that frequency, it probably spins 1800 RPM. With a load, the slip drops that down to 1750. They put the most relevant number on there because that's where most will use it.

Thanks, you made it clearer for me. Normally people use motors at 60hz so the hp is quoted base on the rpm and torque at 60hz. Increase the frequency and rpm goes up and so does the hp. The 10hp name place is disconcerting, but your explanation on why its a 30hp motor makes sense.

Is the technology of the haas 12K spindle in the variable frequency/vector drive unit? What's the limiting factor? the motor or the controller? Are they specifically matched to each other? Can I switch out the 10hp motor for a higher hp rated motor to obtain more torque from the spindle? Just curious.

[Donkey Hotey]

Exactly as Axis suggested, the motors have to be designed for the RPM range they're going to be operated in. You can't just take any 1750 RPM motor and spin it to 12K. The bearings have to handle the RPM. The armature has to be designed so it doesn't flex or (?!?) explode. It also needs to be balanced for that RPM range.

So you probably can't just pump a 7500 RPM spindle up to 12K. In fact, most Haas heads can't take that kind of RPM because they are generally belt driven and may also have a gearbox in the chain. I'd bet the 10K motor in my VF-2 can handle 12K but the gearbox and belts would probably soon fail at that RPM.

There are parameters that control the peak RPM but it's also the wattage of the Vector Drive. My 10K RPM VF-2 has a 20 HP Vector Drive. I believe they also have 30 and 40 HP versions of the Vector Drive (somebody correct me if they only make one, 'larger' unit). It takes more watts to produce more HP.

I've only seen the inside of my 20 HP vector drive but I'd bet the only difference between them is the size of the wiring, rectifier, IGBTs and contactor. The logic board is probably the same. Of course I'm just guessing here.

[Donkey Hotey]

Axis:

What's failing on your motors? Is it the bearings or are the windings shorting out? Do you know how many hours between the failures? Does it generally fail after a long period of heavy use or is it just random?

Believe me: I'm not defending Haas here. This may be a case where the motor is fully rated to put out that horsepower / RPM but it might not be able to get rid of the heat in that enclosure. After looking at the fins on the outer casing, I have to wonder how well it can dissipate heat when you've got it loaded.

The SS has a large exhaust fan right above the motor on the enclosure, right? The 'standard' VF-2 has a large fan up there but the sheetmetal on the direct-drive heads is different.